Proposal

[enismirdal]

I propose a motion of censorship against the letter Z

The letter Z is redudant in the English language. Whenever it appears, it can be replaced by either s or ts without a problem. And ts makes a nicer sound than z. In fact, even if a sound 'z' was actually necessary in the English language, what would be wrong with simply putting some kind of accent on an 's' to indicate voicing?

I just don't like the letter Z very much. Tsebras and tsirconium would be wonderful. As would Tsansibar, Tansania, Tsaire, Tsimbabwe and Belise. The names Tsoe and Elisabeth would be better (I have a funny feeling the Queen spells her name like that anyway, sometimes...).

Altogether, I think the letter Z is superfluous and annoying. Maybe I should make a petition?

Comments

[edith-the-hutt.livejournal.com]

Zzzzz...

Not interested.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Damn you, Edith. That's what I was going to say.

And if we're talking about redundant letters, what about 'c'? Or 'q'? Why should 'z' be first up against the wall?

[enismirdal.livejournal.com]

I'm in favour of retaining 'c' for its aesthetic value, if nothing else. It looks nice, and is useful in Sindarin.

I would back up any movement to axe 'q', but only from English. Retaining it in Quenya would be essential, and it's not bad in Spanish and Portugese either.

[tienelle.livejournal.com]

At least a few versions of Quenya did just fine with "kw" instead of "qu". It just looks less pretty when written down in Roman script.

[crazyca.livejournal.com]

now i'm gonna ask you a little question in croatian:
Zašto???
(Why???)

[enismirdal.livejournal.com]

Ne svida mi se to.

Moj pastu za zube je ukraden. Htjela bih se ošišati.

(I nicked my mum's European phrase book...this is fun!)

[crazyca.livejournal.com]

"I don't like it. My toothpaste was stolen. I'd like to cut my hair."???
and, it's wrong, lol! :oP
Ne sviđa mi se to. Moja pasta za zube je ukradena. Htjela bih se ošišati.

Toothpaste (pasta za zube) is female, not male so everything involving it ends with an a, unless it's plural, then it's e (lol, like sindarin!)

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

English natives just don't get how much fun it is to have objects with gender. :)

Chinese too - I had this chinese friend trying to learn Portuguese who was totally shocked to learn a car was masculin and a chair feminin. Tsk, tsk, neutral objects just aren't any fun. lol

[hermeneut-me.livejournal.com]

Come on, be fair, 'z' is just a misperceived 'n' underneath it all and besides, tsoo just wouldn't be right!

[tienelle.livejournal.com]

But "ts" has its own noise, quite different from English "z". Also "z" is relatively fun to write, as letters go.

The Queen is, I think, an Elizabeth. My aunt's an Elisabeth, though.

[girlofthemirror.livejournal.com]

My little sis is an Elisabeth as well. Isn't this exciting. You need to be a roman emporer. They were allowed to invent letters. Or maybegerman, they are fond of getting rid of letters!

[ilanin.livejournal.com]

*runs away screaming at the thought of Elisabeth*

AAARGH! No. Evil. Evil and Wrong. Wrong and Evil. Elisabeth is, IMO, pronounced differently to Elizabeth; and the diminutives Lis and Lissy would be silly.

Besides, the Ctsech (Tsech?) Republic would look silly.

[senji.livejournal.com]

Elitsabeth?
Elidjabeth?
Lidj might be interesting... :)

[psieye.livejournal.com]

Just because you're not great at maths doesn't mean you should deprive it! :p

The lack of a Z would cause hell! Z-axis, Z-plane, etc. XYS just isn't like XYZ. Algebra (as well as computing and programming) also needs that Z - we're lacking symbols so much that we need to go into Greek and even Hebrew letters when we go high enough. Plus, the "Z" is in a very convenient place on the keyboard - the gaming world would be deprived of a very useful keyboard position if it was absent.

Also, this would force forbidden numbers of books and text having to be rewritten - less of an issue online, of course. No wait... it'd force so many links to have to be changed because Z can't be used anymore...

Finally, there are some phoentics that require a Z, most notably foreign ones. Izumi, Ezekiel, etc


So no, plenty of reasons to keep the Z, as well as the huge chaotic effort it would take to make that censorship reality. Hey, we've lived with conventional current still being labelled the wrong way round to the direction real current travels - why can't we live with a still-of-use letter in the alphabet? If you wish to avoid using it, fine. But trying to ask others to adopt your customs too... well at least you're asking, not shoving it down their throats ^^;;

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Yes, but we could, for instance, replace 'z' by thorn; since the phonetic is irrelevent for axis-lettering and turning-left, a different letter in the same place in the alphabet and on the keyboard would do as well.

In fact, we could take it further; if we replaced 'q' by another useful-but-missing letter, and put than after thorn, we could label 4-d graphs more conveniently without resorting to 't' or 'w'...

[psieye.livejournal.com]

If the "^" thorn was used in place of Z, how would you distinguish it from the ^ used to symbolise exponents? A thorn would also cause confusion when people insert words by hand on paper. Sure, it was just an example you gave, so let's move on - a different letter to replace Z.

By different letter, are you proposing to create a new letter or go about the fuss of removing the replacement letter's old roles? Plus, you've yet to address the administrative issue of implementing such a censorship on a wide scale. Some things, even if they may be a good idea, just aren't feasibly worth it.

[psieye.livejournal.com]

Addendum: "^" looks too much like a capital Lambda. Maths won't be happy.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Far be it from me to say you might be over-thinking this thing... :)

Are we talking about the same letter? I was looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_%28letter%29, which looks different to what I think you were talking about.

If we're talking practicalities, perhaps we should use the now redundant 'z' symbol, which people seem to like the shape of, to represent a new sound.

[opt513.livejournal.com]

The problem you face here is that modern spelling is a matter of tradition, not sense. Z is a part of the alphabet because it is tradition, and þ, æ, & ð are not a part of the alphabet because they ceased to be a part of the traditions.

Incidentally, this is also why words in British English and American English are spelled differently.

[acdragonmaster.livejournal.com]

Dude, 'z' is so totally not a redundant letter!

's' and 'ts' are both unvoiced sounds, but 'z' is voiced. *totally* different an not redundant. And in English, 'ts' is not a sound by itself, anyway, but a compound of 't' and 's' sounds (both of which are unvoiced, by the way, 'd' is voiced of 't', and 'z' of 's'). In Japanese it's its own sound, though, although it falls in the 't' row (as does 'ch', 'sh' goes to 's').

Incidently, looking at a Japanese kana chart (or the Korean alphabet, for that matter) makes it very easy to spot the connections between voiced and unvoiced consonents.

/random language geek babble

((blame Psieye for summoning me :p))

[enismirdal.livejournal.com]

That was why I suggested that if a way to indicate a voiced 's' was really necessay, an accent of some kind would do. Hmmm...or we could always use 'ds'.

Surely the sounds are all close enough that it wouldn't truly cause confusion? After all, in the Nightwish song 'Elvenpath', they keep voicing the 'p' so it sounds like they're singing about 'Elven baths' and I still know what they're on about *grin*

Of course, if everyone in the world started using cued speech, it would be irrelevant whether we actually voiced the sounds or not...^^

[senji.livejournal.com]

Elven baths?

Sounds like a fic idea, to me... :)

[senji.livejournal.com]

         A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling
                          by Mark Twain

        For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped
to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer
be part of the alphabet.  The only kase in which "c" would be retained
would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later.  Year 2
might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the
same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with
"i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.
        Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear
with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12
or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.
Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi
ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz
ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.
        Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud
hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

[acdragonmaster.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd say y should be th, but otherwise it looks good. :p

[enismirdal.livejournal.com]

That would be logical, after all the ludicrous business of "Ye Olde..." and all that... :)